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User talk:Zarevak
Archived discussions __TOC__ Adding a Logos I added the Logos "These" (no, not "Those")and I believe I followed the template correctly. I even clicked on the purge link. So far, it isn't updating. Can you make sure I did it right, and if not let me know what was wrong. Thanks. - Khajja : Hi Khajja, thanks for finding the These logo location. I've updated the task list to be more clear about the process. The Logos locations are not automatically added to their Zone lists as there are two problems with automatizing: :* The DynamicPageList extension on wikia is an older version and have some bugs in it (like categories with spaces are not handled properly as child categories of other categories - solved in 1.3.4). Also possibilities of formating the output of the DynamicPageList extension is limited with the current version. :** Is there way, how to ask wikia to update the extension? If the extension is updated, we may be able to automatize the whole Logos list and list of Logos under each Zone article. :* When the Logos shrine is found on more locations we need to include such articles twice/thrice - but to different Zone lists and with different parameters. I'm not sure, if this is possible with DynamicPageList extension :→ Zarevak 14:14, 10 November 2007 (UTC) ::From what I can tell the wikia sysops should be accommodating. However, it may be a technical issue as to why they haven't updated it. If you present it to them as the wiki community has to do sooooo much more work and additional page creations/edits, they may be up for the task. Khajja :::: angies showed support for this wiki so let's try to ask her. She may be able to arrange the update or point as to the direction we need to take to update the extension. ::* Why aren't you a sysop of this particular wiki? :-) :::: I'm just a regular user here as I joined just few(3) weeks ago. I know we are missing active sysops, but I don't know if I want to be the only one active sysop as it is great responsibility for one head. :::: The only problems we encountered is a need for deleting some articles and updating the Main Page. :::: I ahven't been a sysop before and I don't know the process how to become one. I don't think its right for me to tell the wiki owner: "Hey, I want to be sysop, because I rock." If you are nominating me and other users will agree with your nomination we can ask User:Imaginationac about my promotion ::::: Well, so far I see you and Dashiva doing great work. I am sure Imaginationac would welcome any assistance the two of you could provide on a higher-level of maintenance. ::* I noticed some (I think Wilderness) Logos aren't in alphabetical order. Is this a technical issue? :::: I'm following simple rule to sort the list in each Instance/Zone alphabetically. If there are more Instances the list becomes unsorted at the Zone level. The Instance order is also alphabetically sorted with the exception of Bootcamp, but I will have to remove this exception, because it creates problems for my next Logos list idea ;-) ::::→ Zarevak 14:57, 10 November 2007 (UTC) ::::: Damn database programming crap. :-) A related question. As a rather unique case, the Submit (logos) has two sets of Eloh door logos. I'm not sure how to go about adding this. For the time being, I have mentioned the logos for the second door in the comments. - Silarn 00:12, 05 December 2007 (EST -5) Start/End template pairs We have a few template pairs (Template:Playtr and Template:/Playtr, Template:Walkthrough and Template:/Walkthrough, maybe more). The latter form does not include as a template, but as a subpage. In other words, it's a redlink waiting to happen whenever someone adds it to a page. (Playtr is on 21 pages, only 2 use /Playtr correctly, 19 get it wrong.) I am considering various options: * Changing the naming scheme (e.g. to playtrend, playtr-stop, close-playtr, or some other varation) * Killing off the end template entirely (it's only a table close tag) * Throwing content into the start template, making it a wrapper template * Change nothing, but raise awareness and get people to patrol for pages doing it wrong. Any thoughts? - Dashiva 01:14, 13 November 2007 (UTC) :* I'm 100% against just killing the end template, because it limits the possibilities of the page - we have to rely on MediaWiki to close all the tags and we won't be able to put any text just after the or . :* I'm also against leaving it in current state, because even after we teach the users about the both templates, using for beginning and for ending won't become any easier and more convenient. :* Using two templates - one for start and one for end is also prone to errors, because you have twice the probability to make a typo or to forgot the second template altogether. :* I think, that the best solution is to change the templates to be wrapper templates (if I understand the term correctly as creating the template with one parameter containing the whole text). Also it will be impossible for the users to get it wrong, because if they will write it wrong the whole template won't execute and the problem will be visible on the first sight. :* → Zarevak 01:51, 13 November 2007 (UTC) :: Yeah, that's the idea for a wrapper. The problem with wrapping non-trivial content is that you have to replace all pipes with to avoid random breakage. I wonder if that's actually worse for random editors than the status quo. - Dashiva 12:39, 13 November 2007 (UTC) Admin status? Hey, I'm sorry I've been so scarce lately, but I've been slammed for the past few weeks with lots of other stuff going on. I couldn't help but notice your numerous contributions to the wiki, though, in more than just an editorial capacity. I'm looking for a few folks to promote to wiki administrators and was wondering if you're interested. The main differences in having administrative status is that you would have access to block vandals, protect pages, and edit all pages (including special and protected pages) in the wiki. If you're interested, please drop a note on my talk page or e-mail me at tonyv@pcfreepress.com and I'll grant the rights. Thanks again for the numerous contributions to the wiki! --TonyV 13:38, 27 November 2007 (UTC) : And just because you don't want to be admin doesn't mean you have to go into hiding. Come back here! - Dashiva 03:25, 2 December 2007 (UTC) :: Hi Dashiva, I'm back and sorry for my disappearance - Last week was very hectic in my real life and I did not have any free time for Tabula Rasa :( :: I'm trying to catch up with all the changes and updates on the wiki (going through almost 1000 great revisions takes some time ) and playing with the new game version as well. :: I may disappear once again in the upcoming days, because I've ordered better Internet connection from different company and they need to disable the old one, change it to the new one, and enable it again. I was told it can take a few days to complete the transition :-( :: After the Internet connection update I will be able to continue my work for this wiki and even accept the administrator nomination and help you and TonyV with managing this wiki. :: → Zarevak 01:46, 3 December 2007 (UTC) :::Excellent! I've gone ahead and promoted you, so you should have full rights now. Don't break anything! :p --TonyV 02:05, 5 December 2007 (UTC) ::: Congratulations and welcome aboard. If you need help with your new shiny tools, just let me know. - Dashiva 02:16, 5 December 2007 (UTC) :::: Thank you both. I'll do my best to help you make this wiki a great source for the game. (What does this big red button do? ;-) ) :::: → Zarevak 02:31, 5 December 2007 (UTC) Armor icons I've made two templates for linking composite items (like discussed for the mission template), and . The former has all the images it needs, but the latter does not. Furthermore, only a few of the armor images exist in itemref, so I'm thinking we might as well upload the whole set with proper naming. You've been more involved on the image side than me, so two questions: I'm considering Motor_Assist_Armor_Vest-1.png as format. Any input on that? Any other comments? - Dashiva 03:25, 2 December 2007 (UTC) Wargames redirects Hi. i was wondering if it could be possible to add redirects to the main wargames and wargames duel pages i created. It would be nice if the following redirections would be active for now : pvp/PVP/PvP ---> Wargames Duel/Duels/duel/duels ---> Wargames Duel Also, the positions of the logos choice, strong, empower, only are included in the vortex logos description/walkthru. Cheers! --Stargrazer 15:39, 4 December 2007 (UTC) : There are some naming overlap with regard to wargames: Wargame Feud - Feud Wargame - Clan Wargame, and Wargame Duel - Duel Wargame. Squad wargame is at least stable. For consistency, I suggest we use "Clan wargame" and "Duel wargame", and redirect the alternatives back to those if needed. - Dashiva 19:03, 4 December 2007 (UTC) ::the game calls it a Wargames duel.--Stargrazer 21:38, 4 December 2007 (UTC) ::: There are four messages that use 'duel wargame', four messages that use 'wargame duel', and zero that use 'wargames duel'. Anyhow, maybe we should move this discussion to the wargame talk page, it doesn't really need to clutter up Zarevak's talk. - Dashiva 22:01, 4 December 2007 (UTC) :::: I see you've already resolved the issue. For completeness I'll just add you can create redirects yourselves using this command (it should be the only line in the article source): :::: #REDIRECT where :::: → Zarevak 00:55, 5 December 2007 (UTC) Itemref and related I've been trying to been figure out the web we've got with Itemref. * and the associated TaRapedia:Icon_reference_list are completely self-contained, much like the logos reference. They exist to support the system, no problem here. * has about 550 uses, and is the primary workhorse. It used to include t:Item, but I inlined it recently. * has about 150 uses, and is pretty much the same as t:Icon, except less use. * was used by t:Icon and t:Image (until I inlined it), and still has an additional ~150 uses from things like the mission article section images. These should really be using t:Image (or in some cases, t:Icon). So the first action I'm looking at is phasing out completely. As the usage examination has taught me, deep nesting of shared templates is nothing but maintenance pain. All it does is prepend Item and append .png anyhow. With that done nothing really has changed, just a bit tidier. The issue we're facing is that unlike logos (which are one-to-one), icons have heavy reuse at times. Main alternatives: # Make the main templates only use itemref, and make a subtemplate that only uses image name. # Same as above, but reversed. # Get rid of itemref entirely, and upload images as needed. Don't bother worrying that there are twenty different images of the same thrax head icon. # Embrace itemref, use it for everything. Just avoid looking at the block of subpages, and it's not so bad overall. (We could easily change itemref to include the full file name instead of just a number. That way it could be used for mapping to more than just numbered images.) # Don't bother changing anything. I'm not really sure what's best. On one hand, I consider itemref a mess, and it creates a ton of pages. On the other hand, it allows easy mapping of new items to existing icons, and saves duplicate uploads. Similarly, splitting the templates means each is smaller and faster, but I don't know if it really matters enough. What about you? Do you care enough to have an opinion? :-) - Dashiva 13:32, 7 December 2007 (UTC) : Of course I care I've never liked the Itemref system, because it created images like Image:ItemReanimationWave.png. On the other hand it can be useful for solving image names problems ( uses Replace for removing "/'" and uses ''Replace for removing ":") and it can merge many image references into one, which can ease image updates in the future. The Image:Field Repair Tool.png image was updated with 1.2.2.0 to brown version and it's used under 3 different names: Direct Repair Tool, Conical Repair Tool and Radial Repair Tool. Personally I would like the '''Itemref system go away and add optional system for item name to image name translation. This would solve the naming problem and can also solve the image reuse problem. : Comments about you proposed solutions: :# Make the main templates only use itemref, and make a subtemplate that only uses image name. :#: Having two templates would need us to remember which image is available directly and which needs to use Itemref. :#:: The idea was to over time transition entire sets of icons to non-itemref, like we've done with logos, armor and weapons. But I agree it's not the best solution. :# Same as above, but reversed. :#: I would go with one template using the main image and when not found, trying to use the template. The unneeded inclusions can be stopped by using }|Itemref/ }|EmptyTemplate}} }} :#:: That's a good idea. Getting rid of include pollution would remove one of my major problems with itemref. :# Get rid of itemref entirely, and upload images as needed. Don't bother worrying that there are twenty different images of the same thrax head icon. :#: I wouldn't mind going this way. It will just create more work when the shared image is updated, for you will have to reupload one image to under all the names again. (The thrax head is used only under 14 names ;-) ) :#:: Yeah, it's generally a one-time expense, and it many other kinds of trouble down the road. The downside is that it prevents random editors from linking up new images (although itemref might not be easy enough either). :# Embrace itemref, use it for everything. Just avoid looking at the block of subpages, and it's not so bad overall. (We could easily change itemref to include the full file name instead of just a number. That way it could be used for mapping to more than just numbered images.) :#: updating such system without IRL would become big hassle. When we need to use new image, we would need to upload it to the wiki, create template for it and use the tamplating system. This will become a problem for casual wiki users just updating some article. :#:: Per above, I think casual editors might learn the itemref system and prefer it since they don't have to acquire the images on their own. But if we can get good coverage of icons fairly quickly, this falls away. And as before, getting rid of itemref is still the main motivation. :-) :# Don't bother changing anything. :#: please, go away with Itemref! :#:: Aye-aye, cap'n :# Be able to optionally specify the image name in the templates :#: This will move the image name translation responsibility to the users. I don't see a big problem writing: which would create: Radial Repair Tool :#:: I'm fairly negative to this. It's basically distributed, camouflaged itemref. We lose the easy update and maintenance itemref gives, and it becomes much harder for casual editors who might not know the "real" name for an icon. : → Zarevak 00:38, 8 December 2007 (UTC) :: Comments inlined above. Conclusion below. Based on the above, my preferences are the following (best at top): ::# Start with #2 (name, with fallback to itemref). Remove individual itemref templates as they are shadowed by named images. (No inclusion pollution should make this simple enough.) Eventually this leads to #3. ::# Start directly with #3. Stuff will break, so we're gonna have to do a lot of damage control the first days. ::# Start with #1. Transition more and more icon sets to subtemplate, remove would-be shadowed itemrefs as appropriate. Eventually the ranks should be thinned enough to allow transition to #2 or #3. This is pretty weak, as it offers no real benefits over #2. ::# I don't consider the remaining alternatives improvement enough for the work they would require. :: So, that's my take. - Dashiva 01:17, 8 December 2007 (UTC) ::: Ok, so it's basically option 3 - upload images under all different names (and using Replace for fixing image names). I agree in combination with #2 (Itemref fallback) the transition can also be almost smooth. ::: I've checked the game data and it contains around 2000 different item names (many of them could be used for testing, placeholders and never seen in the game). Problem is there are some item names with more different images: :::* All armor and other clothing parts (Eye Patch, Glasses, Goggles, Sunglasses) - armor solved by using version numbers :::* Aid Package :::* Datapad :::* Detonator :::* Explosive Charges :::* GPS Beacon :::* Salvage :::* Thrax Skull ::: These have more images as well, but only probably due to some bug (wrong/cube icon) :::* Bane Plans :::* Bomb :::* Chaingun :::* Electric Chaingun :::* Thrax Head ::: I've also checked the image usage (575 different images) and some of the most used are: ::: :::I suggest we share the unknown icons (it is already done on components page) and also share the Grenades and Med pack icons. Human data disc should be according to #3 uploaded under many different names (Classified Data Pad, Data Pack, Data Pad, Evidence, Flight Recorder, ...) ::: → Zarevak 04:08, 8 December 2007 (UTC) :::: On further thought, I would prefer to use a second template after all. It doesn't just separate out the ugly, it also gives a reliable overview of which pages use itemref, instead of having to check the individual itemref pages. It also allows t:Icon and t:Image to share the itemref code. I've been bold and put it into action, but it's of course still open for discussion. and now both call if they can't find a named image, and that in turn falls back to the value in . In retrospect, it's a lot like , except it doesn't do inclusion pollution and it has a better name. - Dashiva 12:16, 8 December 2007 (UTC) ::::: Hubris strikes again. Looks like the "reliable overview" isn't so reliable after all. More experimentation is required! - Dashiva 12:22, 8 December 2007 (UTC) ::::: Okay, I got it fixed. Requires a double #ifexist for now, but VariablesExtension will handle that if my request goes through. - Dashiva 14:24, 8 December 2007 (UTC) :::: As for grenades and the like, I imagine we'd do fine with just as well. - Dashiva 12:16, 8 December 2007 (UTC) A small note in case you don't already know and happen upon it one day. Use of #ifexist will generate a Whatlinkshere entry, regardless of what else you do, and regardless of whether the page exists or not. With our current setup, this shouldn't be a problem. Just thought I'd mention it, since it puzzled me a while before I found out. - Dashiva 03:08, 9 December 2007 (UTC) : Thanks for the information, I didn't know that. Does it also create entry in ? After all we wanted to use #ifexist to clear up the ... : → Zarevak 03:23, 9 December 2007 (UTC) :: I tried to find out, but our WantedPages stops after 1000 entries, and it's also only updated once a day. Gonna check the code later. However, should note that since we moved itemref into a separate template we don't get the problem there (only for pages that fail both name and itemref), and logosref is destined for destruction anyhow. - Dashiva 03:28, 9 December 2007 (UTC) ::: Ok, it's official: #ifexist creates entries in :-( I will remove automatic Logosref usage on User:Zarevak/Icons/Logos so we shouldn't have any Logosref pollution in tomorrow anymore. → Zarevak 09:39, 9 December 2007 (UTC) :::: You could use or copy User:Dashiva/Template/Logosref if you want to keep the pages around. It's a bit more bloated, but it has the same functionality, and it's only one (existing) page. - Dashiva 17:16, 9 December 2007 (UTC) Last song of logosref Logosref is almost gone, but you still have those comparison pages. They in turn generate ~400 entries of (3 links) in . So here's my request to remove logosref from those pages. - Dashiva 20:23, 8 December 2007 (UTC) : Logosref red linking removed, sir! And I still have my comparison pages → Zarevak 23:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC) :: We both know I'm coming for those too, eventually. Mwuahahaha. - Dashiva 01:58, 9 December 2007 (UTC) ::: Yeah, I know... We should begin deleting Logosrefs that already has their proper (Image:Logos (logos).png) image uploaded and leave the rest until we find the Logos in the game or decide how to handle them. Using my magic tables User:Zarevak/Icons/Logos as a reference we can rename and upload all but one old article: Home (logos) - this one is not in the game files :'( ::: → Zarevak 02:11, 9 December 2007 (UTC) Ability / Training templates If we put category naming aside (as that can be changed easily) do you have any other issues with and ? Otherwise I was thinking I'd replace existing use with the appropriate new template. Yet another step in the "Save WantedPages" quest. P.S. I'm getting the "over 32k" warning when editing the full talk page. Maybe time to make an archive. - Dashiva 04:14, 11 December 2007 (UTC) : First I don't fully understand why we are splitting the template in the first place - the difference is only in category names, showing needed Logos in and having different subtypes (weapon/armor/crafting vs ability/signature ability). From the game perspective, there are 4 types of skills/abilities (see: here): :* Training - passive skills enabling usage of some equipment type without the need for Logos :* Engineering - passive skills enabling the characters to craft/modify items without need for Logos :* Ability - active skills used in combat, they need Logos and use Power, sometimes Adrenaline :* Signature Ability - special active skills used in combat, they need Logos and use Adrenaline : The only comments about the actual templates are some nitpickings: :* I don't like that the keyword for no needed Logos in is "no" - is there a reason, why it isn't the old "'-'"? I hope there won't be Logos symbol for No as we have Negative already. :* Do we need type parameter in to support three different keywords for signature ability? I don't like the short version sig. For supporting both signature and signature ability, we can use }}}|signature}} | Signature ability | Normal ability}} to try to find word signature in the string. :* The /doc subpages need to be checked and corrected - eg.: there is type=weapon,armor,crafting in ; also there isn't any mention of Name parameter in both and . : → Zarevak 06:00, 11 December 2007 (UTC) : PS: I'll try to archive old parts of the talk page size... :: The division is pretty clear in my opinion. Active/passive, logos/not (except sprint), cost/free. Keeping them separate gives smaller and simpler templates; a combined template would need to #if the entire logos section, and use variables in the categories. Splitting also allows further distinctions, e.g. different styling, should we choose to do that at a later point. :: As for the param, 'no' was just an easy fix. In retrospect it's not even necessary, since I moved the check to surround the entire logos block. I have replaced it with checking if the skill name is Sprint, but doing a check for "-" or even a NoLogos parameter would be equally possible. Since it only affects Sprint now (and in the foreseeable future) I have no strong feelings here. :: The checking for signature ability is a mixed bag. I feel we should have a switch there since we're checking for at least three things (signature, normal, missing) and it allows easy extension if we decide later to subtype abilities (yes, even though I said it was bad, I can imagine being overruled). On the other hand, removing 'sig' is fine. I have done so. :: I have gone over the doc pages. A bit too much copy/paste indeed. Name parameter added. :: Next iteration please. - Dashiva 20:45, 11 December 2007 (UTC) :: P.S. I'm seriously tempted to make a page ) so I can use ::: There is second exception to "Abilities needs Logos" rule: Shield Extender... ::: I'm also thinking about moving the Engineering skills under the new name without the Engineering: at the beginning to have it the same naming policy as other skills and abilities. This rename discussion should continue on TaRapedia talk:Formatting/Article names#Skill_names ::: Re PS: If we create on smiley template in main namespace, others will create bunch more and we and up with many articles named ), P, D, O, ... just for the , , , , ... I created smiley under and it works fine. btw: the picture is from the game ::: → Zarevak 02:36, 12 December 2007 (UTC) :::: Shield extender has got to be a bug, but I guess we're living with that for now. Well, what do you say then? Use a NoLogos parameter for these, or use a magic value? I've replied to the naming issue on the other page. As for the smiley, I won't actually go through with it. It was just frustration over using : instead of = too many times. - Dashiva 10:43, 12 December 2007 (UTC) Good news on WantedPages Now that Logosref is gone and the Itemref is starting to thin out, this is starting to show good promise. Lots of name.png entries for missing images, and named NPCs and places are popping up as well. A job well done. - Dashiva 20:49, 11 December 2007 (UTC) Laser Chaingun * The laser chaingun image is in fact the laser cannon! Bit of an error going on there, eh? --Arcalane 14:31, 18 December 2007 (UTC) :: Thank you for notice. The correct image has been uploaded. → Zarevak 15:20, 18 December 2007 (UTC) Upcoming Update I'm not sure how much attention you pay to wikia issues, but in case you aren't, here's a quick summary. Wikia is upgrading from Mediawiki 1.10 alpha to 1.12 alpha (again). The bigger gaming wikis (includes us) are being updated last (probably to discover and fix issues beforehand). I checked on a wiki that has been updated, and found the update includes DPL 1.6.3 (full list). Huzzah. - Dashiva 23:20, 21 December 2007 (UTC) : Thank you for the news! I'm finding the wikia pages a bit chaotic and I don't know where to look for such information :( : I hope the 1.12alpha (r26409) version will be ok - it's just bit older then the one used by English wikipedia (1.12alpha (r28384) - wikipedia:Special:Version) : → Zarevak 23:49, 21 December 2007 (UTC) : Information found: :* MediaWiki 1.12 :** MediaWiki 1.12/new features :* Forum:MediaWiki 1.12 upgrade : → Zarevak 00:33, 22 December 2007 (UTC) Logos Stuffs Sending the logos images and image coords can't hurt. On the topic of logos translations, after I get back from vacation (Monday) I'll be embarking upon a quest to translate as many logos pillars as I can find, probably placing them all in a central Logos Translations page or somesuch. I'm really not sure if the already cluttered and confused zone pages need yet another category heading, and I'd rather leave categorization and formatting issues to people who know better and care more. Mrspathi 07:35, 4 January 2008 (UTC)